The Great Mate Debate

Posted by: Dan Savage
Topic: Can lack of realism about marriage lead to divorce?

In Against Love, Laura Kipnis' bracing, kick-ass-and-other-significantly-painful-spots-on-the-lower-body polemic (buy it by clicking here), she describes a world in which people have no illusions about love. Everyone, according to Kipnis, is aware that love is a long, hard slog.

We all know that Good Marriages Take Work: we've been well tutored in the catechism of labor-intensive intimacy. Work, work, work: given all the heavy lifting required, what's the difference between work and "after work" again? Work/home, office/bedroom: are you ever not on the clock? ....

Somehow--how exactly did this happen?--the work ethic has managed to brown-nose its way into all spheres of human existence. No more play--or playing around--even when off the clock. Of course, the work ethic long ago penetrated the leisure sphere; leisure, once a respite from labor, now takes quite a lot of work itself.... But when did the rhetoric of the factory become the default language of love--and does this mean that collective bargaining should now replace marriage counseling when negotiating for improved domestic conditions?

But Kipnis is addressing people that have some experience with love and romance and long-term relationships. That is, she's taking about and to people whose illusions about love--that love is blissful and effortless, that monogamy is easy and gratifying, not difficult and tedious--have already been shattered by reality. So, yeah, I'd say a lack of realism can lead to divorce--because the reality of married life (or long-term coupling for the unmarried/unmarryable) can be radically out of step with our romantic notions.

What do we do about it? I'm not sure. If we paint too dark a picture of married life--marriage is hell!--we make it less attractive, and the marriage-industrial complex will have our throats slit in the night if we drive the marriage rate down any further. But if we allow people to enter into marriages without at least nudging them in the ribs and saying, "Hey, it ain't all glamor," we risk driving the divorce rate back up. Maybe the trick is to encourage people to be realistic about some commonly misunderstood aspects of married life.

I have three suggestions: 1. You're still going to want to sleep with other people. The mark of a loving monogamous commitment is not a lack of desire for others, but refraining from acting on those attractions. Hammering this into peoples' heads would save numerous marriages. 2. Children don't bring you closer together. Children, in fact, are a wedge you drive into your relationship. Once you have kids, however you come by them, you MUST make time for yourselves as a couple--date nights, weekends away (fly in grandma and take off for Vegas). It's only when you're away from your kids that you remember why you liked each other so much that you wanted to have kids together in the first place. 3. You're still an individual--and so is your spouse/partner. You need your own friends, hobbies, passions, and time away, and so does he/she. If you don't have your own lives, you quickly run out of things to talk about when you're together. So don't get married, drop all your friends, stop doing the things you enjoyed alone (or insist that your partner stop doing things he/she enjoys and you don't), and then move to some suburb and isolate yourselves--unless you want to quickly tire of each other, divorce, and start the process (meet, fall in love, marry, isolate, divorce) all over again.

Posted by: Greg and Amiira Behrendt
Topic: Can lack of realism about marriage lead to divorce?

Hell yes! The fairytales we’re told of true love, soul mates, big weddings, perfect marriages, happily ever after and love conquers all plays a gigantic part in the unrealistic expectations that people have about marriage. We enter these marriages thinking that because you’ve both signed up for the long haul that you’ve got it made. Marriage seems like it’s big enough to withstand any trials at the beginning when things are still are glorious and grand. And of course love will be enough to get you through any hardships that could possibly come your way. We hate to be the dark cloud but here comes the rain… LOVE IS NOT ENOUGH. It just isn’t. It takes more than love - you need love plus common values, goals and disciplines or at least complimentary ones. The truth of the matter is that love doesn’t conquer your partner’s porn addiction or their inability to go out and have less than six shots of tequila. Marriage isn’t greater than a partners crushing debt with the IRS, creditors breathing down your neck and watching your future security go down the drain. Love doesn’t outweigh an inability to communicate or lack of sexual desire or compatibility. What true love does do is allow for conversations about every aspect or challenge that your relationship encounters so that you can succeed together.

We know this from the countless people that approach us at booksignings, the emails from the disheartened and our own experience. I was married and divorced before I met Greg. My starter marriage (as I like to call it) was riddled with many of the bigger than love problems and none of the communication to solve them. Ultimately the problems crushed the marriage and through sickness and health ‘til death do us part lost it’s oomph and we divorced. Then a few years later I meet Greg Behrendt. We date, we fall in love, we encourage each other to do new things, we thrive together, things are going great, and he asks me to marry him. Now when someone asks you to marry them they’re probably expecting a resounding “Yes!” followed by kissing and tears. But because I had been in a marriage with very specific problems that dragged me through some sucky years I had a very different view of marriage and what love can and cannot overcome. So instead of jumping into his arms with a resounding “Yes!” my response was “Yes, but…” my agreeing to marry him was conditional to him fixing some of the things that weighed down my last marriage – like debt and bad credit. Because he was a few years into his sobriety and living his life more responsibly I felt like these were things that he could work towards and accomplish. Which he did and I married him. Truth be told, had he not sorted out the things that gave me reservations I wouldn’t have married him because I’d already lived through that movie and didn’t need to see “The Relationship Killers” again. A marriage is only as good as the two people in it and their actions. Good intentions aren’t enough to make a marriage work.

Posted by: Ed Young
Topic: Can lack of realism about marriage lead to divorce?

It is absolutely true that a lack of realism can lead to divorce.  I am reminded of this continually as I visit with couples who are experiencing “love on the rocks” and can’t figure out where things went wrong.  Too often by the time I get involved the hearts are hardened and there isn’t a real interest in working things out.  I guess you could say that they come to my office just to say that they met with a pastor before the divorce papers are drawn.

I have to ask these couples a simple question….”Where did the wheels come off?”  Often, it boils down to a reality check that informs everyone involved that there was an ignorance factor in place from the beginning of the relationship.  Most couples are clueless about the ramifications of a marriage commitment before the nuptials take place.

Couples survive for a while on the bliss component but that quickly fades and reality sets in.  Dr. Helen Fisher pointed out in her Friday blog that 90% of Americans will wed at some point.  I can only wonder how many of those will take diligent steps to have pre-marriage counseling and will really study about the path to a successful relationship.  We attend college for 4 or more years to make our career’s soar, we take golf lessons to improve our game but for some reason we give little attention to make our marriages great.

Through classes taught at Fellowship Church we say it, spray it, wheel it, deal it and would put it in the coffee (if we could) that marriage is all about commitment and work!  When two self-centered individuals hook up in marriage there has to be realistic expectations about the relationship and what it takes to make it work. The depth of the marriage is way more than just playing house. Couples need to realize that like anything in life, they have to be realistic about their expectations and prepare for anything. In the case of marriage, ignorance is definitely NOT bliss!

Posted by: Wendy Shalit   
Topic: Can lack of realism about marriage lead to divorce?

Despite the divorce rate, people still imagine that everyone else has perfect marriages, and they are the only ones facing challenges.  But trite as it may be to say, everyone struggles--in life and in marriage-- and it's working through these times that makes your marriage (and life) more meaningful.  That's being a realistic idealist.  And in my book, this perspective is just as important to take when you're deciding to marry in the first place.

Yesterday at a coffee shop, I overheard a very painful fight between a woman and her boyfriend, whom she was yelling at on the phone.  Well, "heard" is probably a more accurate word than "overheard," as the woman was seated right next to me at my table and, unfortunately, was speaking very loudly for about a half hour.

From what I gathered, given her engagement ring, her tears, and her repeatedly screaming, "Just make up your mind so my father can at least get his deposit back!--her fiancé had postponed the wedding, and he refused to set a new date.  His parents, apparently, "hated" the young woman (that was her word), and they were insisting that health records of some sort be sent directly to them to assure them of something.  The woman, for her part, replied that she would agree to health records to be sent to her fiancé, but not to his parents.  Now, I did not hear both sides of the conversation--actually, I didn't even want to hear one side, truth be told--but  it seemed to me that the man was using his parents  as a cover for his own insecurities. (The woman looked to be in her early 30s, so safe to guess that her betrothed was probably not 18.) And, to put it mildly, it did not seem to be a match made in heaven.

My tablemate repeatedly stressed, "I refuse to be tossed around like a guinea pig!"  Yet to my exasperation, she kept meandering back to wanting to get married, and berating her fiancé for not eagerly choosing a new date.  I wanted so desperately to say to her, "Excuse me for this unsolicted advice, but if you're speaking to each other like this now, just forget about getting married altogether."  But there was no opening, not even after the conversation had concluded.  The look on her face was so striken I could only muster, "I'm very sorry that you're going through this." And I certainly believed her when she replied tearfully, "You have no idea. . . ! "

Yes, every marriage goes through bumps, and that's the point: to grow and to face life's challenges together.  But you have to have a basis to undertake this journey.  I think the foundation is mutual respect and trust; in other words, you have to have realism before you can have idealism. 

Posted by: Dr. Helen Fisher
Topic: Can lack of realism about marriage lead to divorce?

Yes, of course, lack of realism about marriage can lead to divorce. But it is my feeling that people tend to be hyper-vigilant about marriage these days, rather than starry eyed. They have heard about the high divorce rate. They have seen their parents, friends, and celebrities divorce. And many are becoming too realistic, and hence skittish, about marriage--one of life’s true adventures. Jean Paul Sartre wrote, “Every selection is a leaving aside.” The time to marry is when your relationship opens many more doors than it shuts. And I think many people are much too focused with what they will be “leaving aside” and perhaps too realistic about their “selection.” Marriage isn’t something you do; it's something you make.

Posted by: Dan Savage
Topic: Why is the marriage rate in the U.S. decreasing?

In Ed's post this morning he wrote...

Let’s be frank. The wrap that marriage gets in the world today is less than stellar. It bums me to think that people have given up on marriage and have written it off as outdated and unnecessary. Who can blame young couples for their lack of interest in marriage?

I'm going to be equally frank.

One of the "wraps" many young people have against marriage today is its association with religious bigotry. Opponents of same-sex marriage insist that marriage is sacred--which is fine, of course, and they have every right to make the assertion, and approach marriage as sacred. For themselves. But they refuse to accept that "sacred" is just one opinion about what marriage is and what marriage does. So long as opponents of gay marriage that seek to define the institution as exclusionary--no same-sex couples allowed! God wouldn't like that!--and in purely religious, and so long as less principled opponents of same-sex marriage speak in purely bigoted ways about gay and lesbian couples, less religious, less bigoted, and more secular straight couples are going to decide that marriage isn't for them.

I get mail ever day at "Savage Love" from heterosexual couples who, like Brad and Angelina, insist that they're not going to get married until everyone can get married.

The ultimate irony is that many of that opposition to same-sex marriage is making it easier for straight couples to avoid marriage. We've created separate and unequal "domestic partner" benefits for same-sex couples, or "marriage lite," that offer a few of the benefits of marriage. But domestic partner benefits are open to straight couples too, and many are going that route instead of marrying.

So by refusing simply to extend marriage rights to the tiny percentage of the population that is gay or lesbian, social conservatives have managed to simultaneously make marriage less attractive to huge numbers of straight couples and provided them with a "marriage lite" option that allows them avoid the institution of marriage but still enjoy some of its benefits. That's a neat trick.

Posted by: Wendy Shalit
Topic: Why is the marriage rate in the U.S. decreasing?

Dr. Helen Fisher pointed out in a previous post that the marriage rate is down because we are marrying later.  This is a very important point and obviously, a crucial piece of the puzzle.  And I can personally testify to the fact that the man I married at 28 is certainly much more suited to me than who I thought I was looking for at age 18. 

At the same time, beyond a certain point, I think we also have to admit that later is not necessarily better. It's difficult to ignore the many women who very much want to be married and who, into their late 30s and 40s, understandably suffer a great deal of anxiety over whether they'll ever find a mate.  When they do marry in their 40s-- Frieda Birnbaum notwithstanding-- it is usually too late for them to have children.  I think this is a real problem. 

One of the most painful aspects of this problem is older singles who feel as if they have done something "wrong," when usually they haven't. Witness this recent comment/question:

Hi Wendy,
Would you have any understanding why an attractive 55 yr. young, red headed Jewish nurse, can't seem to find her beshert? I have never been married and would very much like to settle down already! I have only dated Jewish men (my vow to myself) and yet I am still single! Have tried everything from JDate to letting people know I am available! Any clues?
Stumped in Houston - Jan

Whether we're talking about the declining marriage rate or delaying marriage more generally, I don't think it's about particular individuals doing anything "wrong"--any more than other individuals, as Dan Savage recently and wisely observed, are doing anything "right" just by tying the knot.

I think the root of it is that, as a society, we now value having multiple sexual experiences over bonding. I know I discussed this before so I don't want to belabor the point, but I'd like to see a society in which men and women who wanted to wait for just one love were encouraged instead of labeled as "naive" or "delusional." I think this would not only improve the marriage rate but it would be a healthier attitude for everyone: men, women and especially children.

Posted by:  Greg and Amiia Behrendt   
Topic:  Why is the marriage rate in the U.S. decreasing?

It used to be that your whole life was laid out for you, well actually for everybody, because there was an order and an age that you were to have accomplished the big milestones in. You would help your parents run the farm or family cobbling business, then find a mate or sometimes that would be arranged for you, marry this mate, go into the family business, have babies, get the plague or hit by a wagon wheel and die at the ripe old age of 27. If you veered off the path is was scandalous! “Did you hear about the Winston boy? Nearly 22 and still hasn’t found a wife. Heard his mother’s taken to her bed, can’t bear the shame.” Skip forward a number of generations where the running order of life had changed significantly yet was still pretty much laid out for you in an unwritten yet very set idea of what was the proper way to do it. Grow up, go to college, get a job, find a mate, settle down, have babies, stay in the same job for 40 years, watch your kids grow up, take care of your parents, collect your pension, retire in Florida, learn to macramé. Sure, there were rebels that careened off the tracks and still it was kind of scandalous. “Did you hear about Bob and Maureen? He left his job of fourteen years to find himself and she’s been to the liquor store twice this week.” As it turns out, having your life laid out for you – having a guideline that you’re meant to follow that you didn’t actually create didn’t work for everybody. The expectation and pressure was more than most people could handle and the failure rate was extraordinary. It wasn’t like one day people woke up and said, “Screw this, I’m going to do it my way” it was a gradual shift in the collective. More people started breaking the mold of what was expected of them and began actually living their own lives. And some of them were miserable but many of them were happy and liberated. You can see where we’re going with this. It’s 2007 and we live in a world where there aren’t the same expectations, requirements or concerns about the order and style in which people choose to live. Along with that comes the decline of traditional systems, like marriage that people no longer feel a social obligation to conform to. And certainly people have become suspect of the validity of the institution and that, we think, is a good thing. Knowing you don’t want to get married or don’t have to get married is great because then hopefully marriage comes from a place of true love as opposed to some self-inflicted conformity. That is our guess as to why the marriage rate is decreasing but on the positive side so has the scandal rate in the suburbs. There are many great ways to experience this journey and hopefully you will find one that works for you.

Posted by:  Ed Young   
Topic:  Why is the marriage rate in the U.S. decreasing?

Let’s be frank.  The wrap that marriage gets in the world today is less than stellar.  It bums me to think that people have given up on marriage and have written it off as outdated and unnecessary.  Who can blame young couples for their lack of interest in marriage?  Those who are now entering the marrying age are likely to have been raised in single parent homes being shuffled from one house to another from week day to weekend.  Their memories of their parent’s marriage are anything but pleasant.  Even so-called “Christian” marriages were often as brutal. Young people have witnessed marriage failures first hand and just don’t want any part of it. 

My wife and I get looks of disbelief when we tell people our age and younger that we have been married for 25 years. They can’t believe that we have actually made it that long and are even more surprised that we are enjoying one another’s company as opposed to living miserably together.  Sadly, there are many great marriages that go unnoticed and are proof that this gift from God is something to treasure and hold on to.  The problem is that very few couples know how to do marriage right.  They worry more with the details of the ceremony than with the details of how to make their marriage work. 

I will continue to challenge couples to do life God’s way whether single and content or single and seeking to marry.  There is no question in my mind that the best life in the world is the one that seeks God in all things.  Marriage was created by God as a reflection of His love for us and when done His way is a great and fulfilling thing.  In my teaching series I Don’t:  What you don’t do before you say ‘I do’, I go through the meaning of the marriage ceremony and the steps to take to do marriage successfully. Don’t give up on marriage.  It can and will be great if you do it right!

Posted by:  Dr. Helen Fisher
Topic:  Why is the marriage rate in the U.S. decreasing?

Why is the marriage rate decreasing in America? Primarily because the divorce rate is decreasing; it is currently at 43%, down from almost 50% in the early 1980s. And if you don’t divorce, you don’t remarry. We are also marrying later, giving people the illusion that we are marrying less regularly. But some 90% of Americans and those in the vast majority of other cultures will eventually wed…an exceedingly unusual habit. In fact, if chimpanzees could talk to us about our behavior, they would surely say this human penchant was bizarre. Only 3% of mammalian species form a pairbond to rear their young. Yet pairbonding is a hallmark of humanity. And we will continue to attach. This striking human appetite evolved millions of years ago, “when wild in woods the noble savage ran,” as John Dryden put it. And it is not likely to disappear tomorrow or a million years from now. It's in our genes. Happy Memmorial Day, everyone.